Here are a few of my favorite quotes from the interview where we discuss risk-taking, leveraging PR, and how being a former attorney prepared him to be a CEO:

If we only get 50% of our decisions right we'll still be in great shape which you means you need to make a lot of decisions and be comfortable with that.

I had to be our lawyer for things like just to save money, that kind of thing. But I also knew when it was important to bring in a lawyer, as a lot of entrepreneurs get in trouble because they are penny-wise, pound foolish when it comes to proper documents for investing, proper trademarking, and things like that. Where you can have a serious problem on your hands if you're not thinking about those things. So that for me was like an advantage.

I remember when I was an M & A lawyer and I was, very junior at the time, but I remember it stuck out to me when we would represent these giant companies that no one wanted to decide because they don't wanna be responsible.

Ego is "who is right." Truth is "what is right."

I love Captio, which is a little app that I can put a note and it emails me the notes so I can check it in the morning. I love, honestly, one of my best productivity things is the snooze feature on Outlook, where I check on something, I snooze it, and if I don't get a response, I, you know what I mean? I use it as a kind of a way to keep on top of open items.

Thanks for reading. Now, watch the interview, go buy some BIOHM health, and follow Afif Ghannoum as he continues to build.

[00:00:00] Afif: If we only get 50% of our decisions, right, we'll still be in great shape, which means you gotta make a lot of decisions and be comfortable with that.

[00:00:08] Now, you have to have like good risk mitigation and, take reasonable or educated guesses when you're making a decision. But you ultimately have to make a decision, like if you rely too much on like, decision by committee or like hemming and hawing. You're not gonna do anything. I remember when I was an m and a lawyer and I was, very junior at the time, but I remember it stuck out to me when we would represent these giant companies that no one wanted to decide because they don't wanna be responsible.

Because in that culture, it sort of like, “Handle this, by the way, if you make a mistake, you're gone.”

[00:00:39] KC: How's it going, everyone? This is KC Holiday, the creator of The Underdog Entrepreneur, and I am here talking with Afif Ghannoum, the CEO of Biome Health, who has been gracious enough to spend some time with us today and share a little bit about his experiences as CEO.

[00:01:04] So Afif, thanks a lot for coming on. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. So, I always start with just sort of leaning into, the whole branding side of things here with the Underdog Entrepreneur, and talking a little bit about the story, of how you've got, you got to where you are and having the title of a CEO.

[00:01:19] So, I'd love to hear a little bit about your story leading up to this point, and was it something that you expected was on the trajectory of your life?

[00:01:26] Afif: No. So I was, I'm a biotech attorney by background and I was working at a really large law firm and my father is this research scientist. To this day he's funded by the N I H and probably over a decade ago, 'cause it was like the financial crisis, I was a corporate lawyer working on bringing other people's dreams to lives, like m and type work.

[00:01:45] And my dad did this cool technology out of his lab. And he was super excited. He was telling me, oh, they're gonna create a company around this and they're gonna bring it to life. And I thought that was awesome. And I was just working like crazy, as a lawyer. So like a few months passed [00:02:00] by and I asked my dad like, how's that going?

[00:02:02] And basically like I come to find out he was ripped off that he owned none of the business. They were totally, carting 'em off to the side and it ended up flaming out. And it was one of these where it should have been just a. An amazing, company. So that to me was like, look, I am, at least compared to him, he is like an academic scientist.

[00:02:24], I understand how the corporate thing works. Like how can I let this happen to my dad versus, helping other people? So that was also the kind of time when all hell broke loose with the financial markets. And so I thought, if I'm gonna take a risk, now's the time to do it.

[00:02:42] So, in 2010, I left to start working with my dad, turning, his science and his kind of life's passions. Works over 40 years of research into consumer health products that are based on real-deal science. So that's how I got into it [00:03:00] almost accidentally.

[00:03:01] KC: And so this is 2010, you decided to make this leap.

[00:03:05] So for you, were you inspired at all? As you said, you were helping other people achieve their dreams and run after what they wanted to, but being in law, it's not a traditional like step to go from the law, which is structured. You go to school, there's so much that is required to get to that point, to then go, I'm gonna leave this and become an entrepreneur.

[00:03:21] So like, what was your thing? Were fine doing that, or had you been inspired by the people you'd worked with?

[00:03:26] Afif: Yeah. The thing about being a lawyer is, When you go to law school, a lot of people go to law school and say, oh, I didn't learn. It's not like medical school where you have a residency and you get hands-on experience.

[00:03:37] Like that's true. You don't in law school. But what you do get in law school is like critical thinking. And anybody who's ever run a company knows like every single day critical thinking. You're always coming across something that you've never dealt with. Like, how do we solve this issue? So for me, it was like incredible training.

[00:03:53] And the other thing is, especially in like supplements industry and O T C, drugs, which was our first company. It's so[00:04:00] heavy duty, regulatory and legal driven that honestly, it's been a big help having that background and especially with like intellectual property, that sort of thing. So it doesn't seem like a logical fit sort of at the surface, but you know, it's ended up serving me well.

[00:04:15] KC: So did you feel, that's interesting you talk about that and a bit of a strategy geek with businesses and thinking about advantages that companies have when they start or finding advantages that exist in markets. So for you, Did you see that early on? Or did you recognize it later that, oh, this is an advantage that I have that we could lean into?

[00:04:30] Afif: No I think from day one I thought it was an advantage. Like there were things that, you know and listen, I am just a doofus in Cleveland trying to make it work. Like I'm not anyone special, but I'm gonna tell you, like with my stuff, I could see from day one, like there were things that people were just kind of overlooking from a regulatory standpoint, or like, oh, that's interesting.

[00:04:47] Like if we do this, we'll have much broader IP protection. Those kind of things. That to me, It came kind of naturally because I was looking at it from like a legal, framework that others didn't necessarily think about, or they [00:05:00] were way higher risk tolerance than I was. And sometimes, that risk tolerance ended up being a real advantage to us, being careful about what we were doing, with claims, those sorts of things.

[00:05:11] So yeah, from day one it was really useful and honestly out of a little bit of, just. Needing to do it. Like I had to be our lawyer for things like just to save money, that kind of thing. But I also knew when it was important to bring in a lawyer, as a lot of entrepreneurs get in trouble because they are penny-wise, pound foolish when it comes to proper documents for investing, proper trademarking, and things like that.

[00:05:35] Like where you can have a serious problem in your, on your hands if you're not thinking about those things. So that for me was like an advantage.

[00:05:43] KC: Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of those are, we'll just sort of kick the can down the road and hope that nothing ever happens, and then by the time it does, it's often too late.

[00:05:50] Afif: Yeah, a hundred percent. Like I, more than a handful of times I've seen, investment deals fall apart because of the trademark. They didn't own it. Someone [00:06:00] else, in the middle of the country, had filed it and they never thought to look it up, but I'm doing this, I can't do it. And it's like, no, it doesn't work that way.

[00:06:06] These other people have the right to the trademark. They just, and they've put in sometimes millions of dollars. That's the other crazy thing, right? That these little things that cost them, a thousand bucks early on, they just didn't do,

[00:06:20] KC: the simplest things. Yeah. It's really interesting.

[00:06:23] I'm glad you bring that up because I think. Again, you, it's from a lawyer's perspective, it's so interesting to see the way you approach company building versus other people do, where it's like, we'll figure that out later. Who cares if that were compliant? Who cares? Let's just grow, and we'll figure it out later.

[00:06:36] But you're talking about the risk associated with doing that and how simple and sometimes

[00:06:40] Afif: and sometimes it's the opposite where people think something's a really big risk and I'm like, look, the practical reality is if this happened, It's relatively low risk 'cause of X, Y, and Z. So sometimes it's the opposite for me.

[00:06:53] Look, I don't think there's any right way to build a business. Like I've met so many founders that have all sorts of interesting backgrounds, [00:07:00] but I'm more like the analytical camp. But some people have amazing backgrounds that come outta marketing or finance. But I think the thing that I've found in common with anyone who's a good CEO or founder is understanding.

[00:07:14] More importantly, what you're not good at, and finding the people that can compliment you on that. That to me is the biggest thing.

[00:07:20] KC: So how did you mention a couple of minutes ago on risk and sort of because of the industry you were going into, you understood the value of risk tolerance versus sort of just going for it?

[00:07:30] Or in some industries that don't have that regulation, you do need to go for it and, you kind of think about risk differently. So how do you, how did you navigate? And I wanna get into bio health and understand how it all came to be and where it is today, but how did you navigate like? We've gotta run fast.

[00:07:43] We've gotta grow this thing. We've got to market and sell, but we also need to navigate that risk tolerance. Like how did you balance that? I.

[00:07:51] Afif: So I look at it pretty simply, which is if we only get 50% of our decisions, right, we'll still be in great shape, which means you [00:08:00] gotta make a lot of decisions and be comfortable with that.

[00:08:03] Now you have to have like good risk mitigation and, take reasonable or educated guesses when you're making a decision. But you ultimately have to make a decision, like if you rely too much on like, decision by committee or like hemming and hawing. You're not gonna do anything. I remember when I was an m and a lawyer and I was, very junior at the time, but I remember it stuck out to me when we would represent these giant companies that no one wanted to decide because they don't wanna be responsible.

[00:08:29] Because in that culture, it was handled this. By the way, if you make a mistake, you're gone. Right? Yeah. So, no one would wanna make a decision, right? Why? Why would you? Right.

[00:08:40] KC: Why would you wanna try and put yourself out there, right? If your head was on the chopping block? A

[00:08:44] Afif: hundred percent. So the way we, talk about it internally is like, listen, if we're doing this right, mistakes will happen, decisions will be wrong, but it's the way you react.

[00:08:55] And so we always talk about like, ego is who's right? Truth is what's right. So I don't [00:09:00] care if you made a mistake, just show me like, what's the plan to fix this. Now, you don't want repeated mistakes. That's also a problem. But you gotta empower people to feel that like, listen. We hired you, we brought you onto the team because we trust you.

[00:09:13] You're good at what you, not only like professionally, but you know, if we've done our job right, hiring you, you have good judgment, you have good, tactical problem-solving experience. So if you have those things, then you kinda have to just let people go and then listen. You can't bet the farm on any one decision.

[00:09:32] That's also part of it. But, it's I think part of it comes out of. A healthy understanding of how much luck also plays into everything. And you need some things to fall your way with any of this stuff. Right? Like, and I think that's something that people who are very successful kind of underestimate sometimes how much luck plays into it.

[00:09:54] And people who aren't overestimate sometimes how much, things didn't go their way 'cause of bad luck. [00:10:00] And it's, it's probably, I look at it like 80 20, like. 80% you can impact. You can put a, have a great product or, service, amazing team, raise the right amount of capital, all these great things.

[00:10:14] But 20% just really has to work. Like the customer has to love the product. It has to be the right time for, the industry or the trend you're on, whatever it is, but you kind of have to have both.

[00:10:27] KC: Okay, so by the way, I love what you said, where egos, the who is right and the truth is the what is right.

[00:10:33] That is so good, especially in the world that we live in today, right? Where everybody's trying to go around and give their opinion and be right. You're right. It's just an ego-driven thing versus understanding the truth. That's so good. Okay, so Biome Health, talk to me about it. So you and your dad decide to start this.

[00:10:46] So give me like, just in under five minutes here, just kind of give me the history of the company.

[00:10:51] Afif: A hundred percent. So, I'm a biotech attorney as I mentioned, and we were working on an oral care business and that, we had licensed out that [00:11:00] technology. We're kind of looking at the next thing.

[00:11:02] And my dad did this big clinical trial for the National Institutes of Health looking at the role of fungus in the microbiome. And he published this paper and it got a tremendous amount of attention. 'cause it was about Crohn's, which is obviously, an issue that extra people.

[00:11:18] And I read this paper and I'm like, huh, I've never heard of fungus in your gut. And I'm comparatively like probably considered more like relatively savvy around like the science of what's going on, and I've never heard of this. Yeah, I thought that was interesting. I've heard of like good bacteria, I've heard of bacteria and yogurts.

[00:11:37] I didn't, I've heard of probiotics, but I didn't know what they were, but I'd heard of good bacteria. So I looked and no one was looking at this. As a consumer product, right? So I thought that was an opportunity, right? So, I looked at, whether was it possible to kind of create a probiotic that balanced both the good bacteria and the good fungi.

[00:11:57] And that's what I did. I formulated [00:12:00] a biome and that was our first product. And the whole, pitch was basically like your gut has bacteria and fungi, your probiotic should too, so that, that was the initial sort of first idea. And then Goop ran a cool article about us and we were off to the races.

[00:12:16] KC: And how'd that Goop article come about?

[00:12:18] Afif: So again, one of the things I think is that you can accomplish a lot with just like, kind of doing stuff, right? So the way that came about right is, we got a ton of pr, we did hire a PR agency and I believe it came through them, but we got a lot of pr like that through initially.

[00:12:38] I went on, I think it was Upwork. I don't know if it was called Upwork at the time, but it was definitely what, and maybe it was like OD desks, but it was Upwork. Yeah. And I hired a guy to look up the top hundred, business publications in the US and then all the editors. And then I wrote a form email and I have this guy email this form email, which is basically like, Hey, we're creating this [00:13:00] company around my father's research and fungus in the gut, and I'm gonna create the world's first probiotic.

[00:13:05] It bounces both. Lemme give your readers a front-row seat on how we're gonna do that. And Fortune and Forbes responded and I got a guest, like a contributor column for Forbes. And so I probably wrote a dozen articles about how we were launching bio. And so, that, that kind of coverage begets other coverage, and we ended up having a great PR firm.

[00:13:29] That got it in front of Goop who saw all this other coverage and they're like, okay, this is interesting. And that was, you know how the day we launched that article went live. Wow.

[00:13:39] KC: Just for the sake of like, I'm sure people that are reading this and or watching it is like that email you send to all of these publications, and what I love too is that people misunderstand or get wrong a lot.

[00:13:51] As you talk about is like, sometimes it's just doing it. Like sometimes you have to reach out to a thousand people to get five. Like that's sometimes just the gain you have selling is a [00:14:00] volume game, right? For the most part. Right. To get something. But so that email you send them like, What? What'd you put in it?

[00:14:06] What do you think it was that made them interested? Was it your guys' credibility? Maybe you included your dad's article. What was it?

[00:14:12] Afif: Yeah, so I had been doing a whole bunch of writing just on, on and off about like entrepreneurial stuff, like creating products, other people. I know how they create products and so I wrote it.

[00:14:23] I was like, look, This is interesting to people. People love Shark Tank. They love how ideas become actual products. I, at the time, didn't end up going to retail initially, but it looked like we were going to, at the time from my old company, I had done a lot in retail. I said I have all these retailers interested.

[00:14:41] I'm gonna be able to show your reader going from concept to like product on the shelf over several articles. And I included sample pieces I had written and I. Of told 'em, like, look, I'll feature this very heavily and we're gonna run a ton of ads. I'll feature this, in my columns prominently. [00:15:00] So basically like what's in it for them?

[00:15:02] Right? It wasn't all about me. It was, I'll write great articles, it'll be of interest to your audience, we'll promote the pieces. All this kind of stuff. And then the other part, which I kind of glanced over is I probably followed up 10 times on each of these, like, oh, okay. it's a ton of follow-up.

[00:15:22] As you said, sales are like really just a process. Some of my biggest deals and opportunities I've got are just, it's like endless follow-up and like when someone says they're not interested. Alright, thank you very much. But a lot of times, yeah, my framework is that people are just busy. Right? If you have something compelling, They will eventually be interested in it if it's for them.

[00:15:44] But a lot of times if they're not following up to you, if they're not responding unless they've said no, then I leave them alone. 'cause otherwise, that's what is annoying. Yeah. Just like being a pest. But if people are, if they respond or they haven't responded, I will follow up till I get a no [00:16:00] or a yes, so sometimes it's like 20 emails. It depends on this case. But, that's how I got to. You know that for the first Forbes

[00:16:09] KC: contributor column. Amazing. And so then you shared the story of Biome. What you were building, what the product was, why your benefits all. So you got a, yeah, basically like not a front-row seat because you weren't spectating, you were putting it out there, but you were at the top of the charts in terms of actually sharing what it was that you were doing publicly.

[00:16:25] Afif: A hundred percent. And then I would do the same thing. I would check out, and I don't remember exactly what the category was called, but I would go to like Apple iPod or Apple Podcasts and I would look at like new and trending podcasts. 'cause they're not so big that they're never gonna respond to you, but like they're getting some sort of audience.

[00:16:41] And I would kind of modify that email and be like, I have a call for Forbes. Instant credibility. Yep. I'd love to tell you about what we're doing. And I get a really good response rate and so like, that's the other thing. Any, I am the king of leveraging any scrap [00:17:00] of traction I get right here are my initial, like work samples.

[00:17:05] I get a Forbes contributor column, Forbes contributor, Hey look, I do all these things including writing for, you know what I mean? Like, I would do that all along the way and progress begets progress a little bit. So I think that's the other thing like people underutilize. The accomplishments they've had and the things they have to leverage to show kind of social proof that I'm a person you should deal with.

[00:17:29] KC: Yeah. Leading with that credibility, I think. I think that's a really interesting point. That's like, and especially in the early days, 'cause one thing selling, right? Like you're like, I don't have necessarily a lot of social proof. I don't have a lot of, maybe my sales aren't that big, like maybe we don't have a lot of validation, but whatever we do have, you've got to just leverage that into the next bit of validation and keep leaning into it.

[00:17:48] Afif: hundred percent. I just literally had a deal announced that we're doing product development for a prominent supplement company. I shared that article because they're a great company. I shared that article with a bunch of prospects saying, [00:18:00] Hey, listen, we're doing this.

[00:18:00] I'd love to work with you on this. Why? 'cause it shows like, look, you're not taking a risk. What we're working on is legitimate. Like we have serious partners that are interested in this. Is it worth another conversation? And even just sometimes just that prod is enough for people to say, you know what?

[00:18:19] It is worth taking another look at. Or maybe it's not, you know what I mean? But like it's also giving a non-annoying reason to follow back up,

[00:18:27] KC: yeah. stops it from becoming a missed opportunity. 'cause you're right, if you send an email and you leave out something that gives you credibility that might make them think twice about deleting the email or saying no, like you're just, it's just a missed opportunity for you to try and, Take advantage of it.

[00:18:39] Afif: Yeah, and look, I'm sure you get 'em. Like I get 'em. I probably get 20 Facebook agencies a day reaching out. I think the nuance is, it's not just understanding like, oh, you gotta follow up, but I think you have to examine what you're working on and seeing, like are you offering a unique offer or [00:19:00] proposition in services?

[00:19:01] You know what I mean? Because I knew what we were doing. Extremely unique in the space. They were not gonna find someone else that could use big microbiome data sets, bacteria, and fungal data sets to create new products Innovation like that is unique. Facebook ad agencies, like, I'm sure there are some amazing people out there, but like a lot of people are doing that.

[00:19:21] It's not differentiated. So if you're gonna do that you gotta come up with something that's highly different. You know what I mean? Maybe it's your fee structure, maybe it's your performance, KPIs, who knows, right? But like, I think that's another thing people overlook is like, am I offering something that's gonna stand out in someone's inbox that's already a busy person that gets pitched all day every day?

[00:19:46] KC: That's so good. Okay, so tell me now, so that's how you get started. you get sort of the Goop article, and things kind of take off from there, leveraging the advantages that you've created through this PR network. So now tell me about where the company's at today. So what year about [00:20:00] was that when that happened?

[00:20:00] I.

[00:20:00] Afif: So we launched in 2017, so this is now, five and a half years in. So we've gone from pure D two C to, we still do D two C, but now we're launching into retail and then we power products for, a bunch of different companies, powering their innovation. So we've kind of gone from just sort of pure consumer play to trying to power innovation in the space.

[00:20:27] KC: So so your revenue-driving behavior is like, you have the actual distribution of your products branded with your own, your stuff, but then you also do developmental products for others, like medical-based supplements, things like that.

[00:20:40] Afif: yeah, like dietary supplements, but like dietary supplements.

[00:20:43] Yeah. Like science for, yeah, like look within the space of a month. I was on Q V C too. Closing and announcing deals with B two B partners where we're formulating for them to, do clinical trials that we're launching over the coming weeks. You know what I mean? Like, we're a [00:21:00] very varied company, but I think that's an advantage for us because, obviously, especially in supplements, there are so many options.

[00:21:08] So you need to have either, like first in class science, be partnering with other people who have giant distribution platforms. so I think, part of it's just. Hustling to look at where are you gonna find the revenue channels that stick. And I only think you can do that if again, you have something unique, differentiated that 80 other people can't just jump on of the trend.

[00:21:27] KC: so how many employees do you guys have now?

[00:21:29] Afif: I think we're at 22 now, give or take.

[00:21:32] KC: Cool. So for you, okay, so it's been, it's been five and a half years now. overall, how have you found sort of managing the growth and, having the title of CEO and everything that comes with it?

[00:21:43] Afif: I think part of it is having a realization that you need to understand what type of entrepreneur you are. So for me, that was realizing that. I love the ignition phase of entrepreneurship, zero to one, creating, getting it, to that initial [00:22:00] seven-figure sort of run rate. Now we're clearly in like sort of the fuel and burn stage of the bonfire, right?

[00:22:07] Where you need processes, you need teams, you need, a lot of blocking tackling. For me, it was important to surround myself with that, people that had experience doing that, putting in the proper systems, putting in, getting away from sort of momentum through shiny objects to momentum through processes and systems, right?

[00:22:27] So that's been a real learning experience for me. And, I even say to our board, like, look, going back to what we ta talked about, ego is who's right versus truth is what's right. I'm also one of our company's biggest investors. So I look at it like, at the end of the day, I will do what's best for the business.

[00:22:44] So that might one day mean I'm not the best CEO, for now. It, it seems to be working, but, I think that's something if you're being honest with yourself, you have to, look at that, 'cause it, it's very difficult to be able to do everything under the sun.

[00:22:59] KC: So you mentioned it's, [00:23:00] sort of getting to this stage is kind of the challenging part where you enjoy the early stage of it and you're good at it.

[00:23:04] What have you found to be the, like, maybe specifics, what, like what have you found to be the steepest learning curve for you? So you like, and I think it's like you don't understand the demands of being a CEO until you're actually in the role and you're managing a growing company and things are kind of thrown at you.

[00:23:18] So what have you found to be the steepest learning curve?

[00:23:20] Afif: people honestly like. You, when you're an entrepreneur with an idea and you have that prototype or whatever, that's not a company that's truly an idea, right? It's truly almost not a hobby, but it's very insular. The second you try and build a business almost without exception like there are rare examples, you need more people that you can delegate.

[00:23:47] Real responsibility to that means you're dealing with other people with personal obligations, with professional goals, with their dreams. And that can be challenging to, do a good job. So for me, it was understanding how you thrive at managing and working with others. First class people and kind of going through that, that like, how do you hire properly?

[00:24:12] How do you fire properly? Like sadly, you have to do that sometimes, right? Like, how do you encourage someone? How do you make someone feel every day that this job is very important, understanding that it's not their company, right? They're never gonna have that sort of same buy-in that you do not 'cause they're a malicious person, but because it, they didn't found it right, but If you've done right, I think you can encourage people and show them that there is a way that this should be an exciting part of your life. So what are the incentives that drive people? 'cause it's not the same. Not everybody's incentivized by equity or more money. People want to feel purpose.

[00:24:48] Some people don't care about that. They do want more money. You know what I mean? Like, so understanding, like the incentives. I think that's, for me been something that's taken a lot to, grow and learn through

[00:24:58] KC: what was an early hire for you?[00:25:00] That changed a lot that you were like, I brought this person in and all of a sudden my life got pen X easier than it previous, previously was.

[00:25:07] Afif: So, I've had a few people like that. I think the best sign of that is when, for their role, I can go on vacation and I truly am not worried about that situation because of one of my mentors. Who's had a successful exit as a CEO, he said, it was kind of eye-opening to me. He said, you know it, when you run a company, there are not many good days.

[00:25:30] There's always something happening, especially when you're big. It's just, statistically, something's gonna wrong, go wrong today. Right? Yeah. So it's not so much that nothing is gonna go wrong if like I'm on vacation. It's that if something does go wrong, I have a team that will f. Handle it, and figure out how to problem-solve.

[00:25:50] Like that to me. I've had many hires that, really have resolved that feeling for me. And then I've had a number that it persists and you start to realize, okay, well this might [00:26:00] not ultimately be a good fit,

[00:26:02] KC: so in terms of, I'm assuming you have a leadership team that sits underneath you, that you work closely with.

[00:26:06] So what was your cadence of bringing them on? Did you hire to replace sort of what your strengths were with somebody so you could focus on other things? Or did you hire for your risks?

[00:26:15] Afif: So my first like key hires, like that was, our c o Mike, he's the guy I've known for a long time, also a biotech attorney, and it was sort of, I would talk with him almost every week and he had just exited his business and they had a nice exit and it, I was talking him enough that I'm like, why don't you just come to help me?

[00:26:33] Right? And so he was one of my first key hires where A pretty flat organization. So he and I were kind of running it together. And then about a year ago, we brought on a president that had, a phenomenal background. his name's Sam Schatz. He came out of a company called AeroFarms. And he was one of the early employees.

[00:26:53] I think he was the first employee. And that company's done phenomenally well in the vertical farming space. And I could tell [00:27:00] he was the guy, like had finance background, had seen this is how you build sort of the plumbing of the systems and things on a growing entity. So yeah, it's, those have been two of the guys that when I brought on to kind of run the company with me, it's like you feel like a real unlock skill-wise, so those two have been great.

[00:27:20] KC: it's interesting, talking about a D two C model, even though I know you've expanded beyond that today, but like traditionally, it's marketing, it's sales, it's growth like those are the people that are brought on early on. Whereas for you it was more about I.

[00:27:34] C O and sort of a C F O background and similar skill sets to you. I think in some ways that maybe bolstered the skills that you had. Is that because you had grown organically through the work that you had done through pr, where it didn't feel as much of a need from a brand side of things? It was more of a product-led organization

[00:27:51] Afif: that, so that's a fantastic point.

[00:27:53] If I had to do it again. Early on, I would've, so we've, so lemme take a step back. We now have a [00:28:00] guy who came on a couple of months ago, Tyler Anderson. He was the chief marketing officer of a company called Lumi. They had an amazing company they built, I don't think they raised a dollar, and they had a fantastic exit to, Harry's, the shaving company.

[00:28:12] I brought him in to run our marketing, our performance marketing. And that's a hire that I wish I had made. A year in, not necessarily on day one. 'cause we had a lot of really good PR momentum. part of it too is honestly what changed everything for us was Covid. Like before we were really in that mentality and I think a lot of people were that, well, we kind of have to hire someone who's here and they moved to Cleveland Covid.

[00:28:39] You were kind of forced to change that perspective. So now, like Sam, our president, he's in New York, Tyler's in Utah. Our head of Quality Florida. Like they're best in class in the industry, but they're not in Cleveland because Cleveland is an area that we don't have a lot of that expertise for [00:29:00] this industry.

[00:29:00] Right? So that kind of mindset shifts where wow, we really can grow a thriving company, and everybody's remote opens up the doors to the type of talent we could attract.

[00:29:12] KC: That's interesting. I experienced that as well, sort of with the location-based limitations of hiring and wanting people, because you're right, previously, like, and I don't even think that Zoom was kind of a joke before Covid.

[00:29:23] It was oh, I'm gonna jump on a video call. Like, sorry, like it's not gonna work and it's gonna be delayed. And it just wasn't a very efficient way of communicating, so it didn't make sense to hire people that way. But the next question I was gonna ask you was, are you guys hybrid?

[00:29:34] Are you fully remote? I love what you said about the. Geography. I read an interesting article once that somebody said like, if you're basically in recruiting, you're building a team. That's what you're doing and your goal is trying to build the best team possible. Where if I told you you could only hire in Cleveland, that was the team you could build, could only come from that place and somebody else could hire from all over the United States, like who was going to win the person that was capable of hiring from all the United States.

[00:29:57] Right? So how have you managed to even make that switch because you were leading a company before that was directly in one location and now you've made this switch to a fully remote company? Like how have you managed that and what have been some of the challenges?

[00:30:10] Afif: So I think, let's start with the challenges.

[00:30:12] I think one of the challenges is it's very difficult if you're not aggressive about it, to build a cohesive culture. we're not that much, but a couple of times we've run into situations where We've brought someone on, and they're literally about to start. And then I'm not joking, the day before they, they come on board, they're like, I got a job somewhere else.

[00:30:30] And you're like? And it was to me, I think the fact that everyone's remote, it's almost like Tinder where they can just go to the next thing. There's no sort of I've seen a little bit sometimes professionalism go out the window because honestly, I can just not respond to your email.

[00:30:50] I've never met you in per, it's a very low barrier to cut things, right? So that a little bit has been a challenge. And I will tell you when we've [00:31:00] brought people on that, cause the company's kinda. 50% of people that were here pre covid. So, we built a lot of personal relationships.

[00:31:10] That's been pretty easy. The other half of the company are people that we've never worked in person together. There are very senior people on our team I've never met in person, and it's been great, and so part of it is vetting the person. Like, is this gonna work? Are they used to working remotely?

[00:31:28] Like is this a. True data in the world, professional, right? Like that's not gonna be their mo. And then, trying to make an effort to bring people together in person periodically, I think makes a difference too. So it's a little bit of a balance, but, I think the positives outweigh the potential negatives.

[00:31:50] KC: it's interesting in the changes, that you talk about there, where it's made performance more objective, where it's like, Hey, it's kind of, there's clear cut numbers what we need to do. You're over there, I'm over here. This is, it makes it very [00:32:00] clear. But by doing that, you also miss out on sort of the other advantage that could have been, which is the actual relations side and the trust side.

[00:32:06] So you have to over-index toward that. Where previously people probably cared too much about the culture and not enough about the actual performance of the organization.

[00:32:13] Afif: and you also realize how much time you waste, in person. Like, a lot of times, like, even people that I work closely with who are here, they're like, oh, do you want me to go on that presentation?

[00:32:25] Like, honestly, it's easier over Zoom 'cause we're both looking at the same screen, right? but like everything, sometimes you want that sort of human interaction, social interaction. So it's like anything, it's the boring answer, which is, it's a balance, right?

[00:32:38] KC: Do you have someone on your team responsible for culture or for, nurturing those relationships or those trust elements that don't exist as a result of being remote?

[00:32:45]

[00:32:46] Afif: We don't, that's something, we might start looking at. Part of it is, when you run a company in Cleveland, I always joke that we're like, Depression era, Amish farmers, like we're very risk [00:33:00] averse and we're very careful. So like, sometimes it's bad like they joke with me at team 'cause I'll be like, well I could save 38 pops if I just fly spirit.

[00:33:11] And they're like, why do you want to, like why? So, that's one of those roles where increasingly I think it is important, but we've kind of just come out of that. Stage of our company where it felt like something like that would be like an unnecessary expense maybe. But, that's again going back to the like learning and growing as a leader is understanding those sort of, emotional intelligence pieces of the, a puzzle as well,

[00:33:35] KC: So let's get to you sort of in, in your role and you having the title and dig a little deeper with some stuff here. Lemme ask you, did you work more hours as a lawyer or as an entrepreneur? I.

[00:33:45] Afif: It is not even close. I worked like maybe not twice as many hours as a lawyer, but a lot more as a lawyer.

[00:33:52] I like not even close. not because I would necessarily work less, but I think in the business world, a lot of what you do [00:34:00] is tied to other people. And so your manufacturer is not working at 8:00 PM they're. They work very specific hours, you know what I mean? So like you're kind of limited a little bit by that. And in the legal world when you're doing like very big deals, it's like you're there till it's done. You know what I mean? And so, not all the time, but we would work overnight through the night, things like that. I've never done that. it just doesn't happen, so, yeah, it's a little bit of a jaded, answer. But honestly, I gave myself good work. Work ethic, to be honest.

[00:34:33] KC: Yeah, no, that's what kind of what, that's what I was curious about, to say, because I think one of the messages that I'm not necessarily an advocate of is that, entrepreneurship is you're working 24 7 and you gotta always be on the ground.

[00:34:43] And it's, I think just creates a unhealthy, yeah. Individuals that are responsible for leading what are supposed to be other healthy individuals. Right. And so, go ahead. Yeah. So if it comes from the top down that way, it's not right. No,

[00:34:54] Afif: I agree. And I think the other thing is you can get a tremendous amount done in eight to 10 hours a day if you just do [00:35:00] your stuff right?

[00:35:00] Like I think a lot of times and I saw this in the legal world too, people that were like cranking at 10:00 PM we're rolling in at 11 and they were, like, yeah, I'll go lunch. And it's, in, I think if you're efficient, you're doing your stuff, you can get a ton done. again, one of my favorite annoying cliches is work, smarter, not harder.

[00:35:25] I do think that comes in at play.

[00:35:26] KC: So is there talking about productivity in your day, I'm not exactly a productivity hacker, but I think it's always interesting to ask people what tools they use to try and help them get the most out of their day. So what are some tools that you use?

[00:35:37] Afif: I love Captio, which is a little app that I can put a note and it emails me the notes so I can check it in the morning. I love, honestly, one of my best productivity things is the snooze feature on Outlook, where I check on something, I snooze it, and if I don't get a response, I, you know what I mean? I use it as a kind of a way to keep on top of open items.

[00:35:56] and then honestly, it's kind of boring, but just good old [00:36:00] Google Drive and a Google Doc where if we're having meetings like. Okay, what are the specific action items out, out of this? And, following up? I think, beyond that, it becomes diminishing returns. I think just doing those type kinds of things.

[00:36:12] I'm always surprised how few times people are taking notes in meetings. so like some of the things that are just like willing for things, I think honestly make a big difference.

[00:36:20] KC: I think the first one you mentioned, Captio, is that what it's called?

[00:36:23] Afif: Captio, C A P T I O. I'm double checking.

[00:36:25] KC: Yeah but to your point a big one is.

[00:36:30] One person, I think just stopped taking notes in meetings, which I agree with you, is like a fascinating thing to observe. But the other is, okay, once I've written it, for me it's the gap between this and then digital. So it's like, great, I took a note in this book, but am I, how is that, how am I going to get it to a point or somewhere else?

[00:36:48] Or even if I take notes in, like even just a Google doc, if I'm taking notes in, they're like, how do I revisit these notes? And I think that way. You talked about Captio, is it emailing you, which almost turns it into an action item?

[00:36:57] Afif: yeah. and to me in [00:37:00] meetings, just having like, increasingly we just add a Google Doc into the meeting invite, and that's a live document that we're taking.

[00:37:07] Like what's the latest, like in our business, there's tons of logistics, right? Like, literally like, how are we shipping? What's up with this? Yeah. Never end. You're just not gonna remember that stuff. I don't care who you are. It's like the person who. Every time a server takes your order and they're not writing it down.

[00:37:27] Right. And like, listen, some people truly may be gifted. That's amazing. Most of us are not. So you're gonna, you gotta take notes and it's gotta be something that, like we have a day, a daily standing, logistics meeting. If it's not done, it's right there. So people will get their stuff done,

[00:37:47] KC: it's great. You talked about a daily, logistics meeting. So take me through, if you wouldn't mind, what your meeting cadence looks like. So every week, are you meeting weekly with, as a leadership team? Departmentally, project specific. Take me through that a little bit, if you don't mind.

[00:37:59] Afif: [00:38:00] Yeah, so we don't do a lot of status meetings. We do a lot of like, Kind of action meetings where we're proactively getting things done, like working on our latest labels or, figuring out, like I said, the shipping logistics flow or whatever it might be. So most of our meetings are around that.

[00:38:17] We do very little sort of, a check-in call. We do a weekly all-hands team meeting where we kind of go over one personal win, and one, business wins as a minute per-person kind of thing. It's just a nice little touch base because some people you just otherwise wouldn't talk to very often.

[00:38:34] So, but then other than that we try and make every meeting or, zoom. Truly productive. now the challenge that is sometimes people wait to do things for the meeting until the meeting. So it's always a balance. Like you gotta figure out what, obviously works for your organization, but we're not just having meetings for meeting's sake.

[00:38:53] I think we're pretty good about that. but I feel like I also do feel like I live on Zoom, which is not good either,

[00:38:59] KC: And, [00:39:00] do you have a project management tool that you guys use as a company?

[00:39:02] Afif: We use monday.com.

[00:39:03] KC: when did you start using it?

[00:39:04] Like when did you implement that? Was that a covid behavior? Like now everybody's remote, we gotta get everything in one centralized location.

[00:39:09] Afif: Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, I will say one of my biggest unlocks productivity-wise is we use project managers out of the Philippines that are just.

[00:39:22] Unbelievable resources for keeping track of, various project management progress. And, that's been, something that, we've found to be incredible, effective, also very cost-efficient. And, I just had unbelievable luck with, fighting highly skilled people.

[00:39:42] complement moving the ball forward, with project management out of the Philippines.

[00:39:47] KC: So take me through what their expectations are. Do they go in and clean up the project as things progress? Are they making sure people are held accountable?

[00:39:53] Afif: it's kind of all of the above. So we've, as an example, I've had, project managers outta the Philippines that will help [00:40:00] us build lead lists.

[00:40:02] To find contacts, actually email those contacts, and keep track of our contract database. Like everybody's had that contract, that auto-renews and you're like, oh I wish we gave nothing. Yep. We have one person because I look at things as cost versus value. The cost of having someone where their only duty is to make sure we do not miss an auto-renew termination date.

[00:40:27] Could be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? If a contract we wanna get out of, we missed the date. So that's how I look at these things, right? So we have someone that probably 50% of our job is just making sure the contract database is updated. We're aware of all key dates in various contracts.

[00:40:47] So I think, Before Covid where we were not used to utilizing overseas resources, it just honestly wasn't cost-efficient to do that. But as a result, you'd have things slip through the cracks. I, [00:41:00] it's been a big unlock for us.

[00:41:02] KC: That's awesome.

[00:41:03] And having Monday allows you to do that, is that, does a lot of that stuff live in you? You basically will just sort of allocate a task to that person in the Philippines and they can just look it and get that stuff done and help the team

[00:41:14] Afif: ensure? Yeah, they'll organize it and they will track it down.

[00:41:18] We don't use them much for like pure kind of secretarial work is what I'd say, like organized meetings. I do all my calendars, things like that. I think that's a waste of their skills. Honestly. They're, is incredible the high skillset I found of people that were previously running very sophisticated project management for Fortune 500 companies out of the Philippines, and now they're looking for something new.

[00:41:43] So we've been lucky with that. But, That's a whole other topic of your conversation. 'cause you gotta know how to interview and vet and all those things. so, but you know, anyone who's interested, feel free to reach out. 'cause to me, I've sent a few people, that way and it's [00:42:00] universally been a big advantage.

[00:42:03] KC: Oh, that's interesting. I might reach out to you about that sort of at a different time to understand how to best, approach that process. Because I think that's something where everybody goes, oh yeah, that sounds awesome. That sounds like, a dream world. And then they end up having a really bad experience with somebody, right? Or maybe they didn't interview properly, or, give proper management to that person or expectations for that person and they end up going like, this didn't work.

[00:42:24] Afif: A hundred percent. There's a whole, it's a whole other top-end discussion.

[00:42:29] KC: Okay. A couple just to close out here. One is your work with your dad.

[00:42:32] I've worked with family before. It can be hairy at times. How is it between you?

[00:42:37] and

[00:42:37] Afif: your pops? So I think it works for us because we truly are in our lanes. He, to this day, has his lab. So he's a research scientist. And honestly, on the business side, he doesn't get that involved.

[00:42:52] He's, so for us it's work 'cause we just kind of stick to what we're working on. it doesn't mean you don't sometimes have a good old fashioned drag-out fight [00:43:00] with your dad or whatever like that happens, but like, honestly, We just really get along. But I've seen where that isn't necessarily the case.

[00:43:08] You have to know if it's gonna work. And we also treat each other like we treat anyone else. Like if he's seeing something he doesn't, think makes sense and I'm doing, he will say that and vice versa. Always, respectfully, but. That's the key I've seen where I can't say it's my dad.

[00:43:25] I don't operate that way. It's not fair to us because ultimately if I do something to appease him and it hurts the business that's hurting us. Right. So, and vice versa. And again, I'm not talking about like I, I'm talking about just kind of everyday Run-of-the-mill decisions, right?

[00:43:41] It's you, if you have that kind of respectful relationship where you can have an open, transparent discussion, I think it can be great. but you gotta know if it works for you because I've seen it go bad too.

[00:43:51] KC: Yeah, that's right. It doesn't always work out Well. It worked out all right for me, and it sounds like it's going well for you too.

[00:43:55] Do you have external accountability? You have partners, you have your dad as a partner, may have other partners as well, but do you have specific external accountability in your role as the CEO to ensure things are moving

[00:44:06] Afif: forward? Yeah, a hundred percent. We have a board, we have, venture capital investors, we have angel investors, and so yeah.

[00:44:14] And, but I said, for me, I've never had an issue with that because honestly, at the end of the day it's funny, I talk to a lot of founders.

I'm like but the board, what if this, what if they aren't that? Honestly, that's fine. I'm trying my best. It's working awesome. If it's not, that's fine too.

[00:44:28] Like, let's just make this work. I think you have to have that attitude. Otherwise, it's life is too short is kind of my view. And, At the end of the day, if you pick the right partners for investors and for advisors and all those things, if they're saying something about what they like or don't like, you should respect them and you should, they should be a trusted voice at the table.

[00:44:52] So, for us, that's great, just makes us better.

[00:44:54] KC: I like what you said there, where you call all of 'em partners. I think it's something that, that actually presents a [00:45:00] gap sometimes where people don't realize is, oh, they're an investor. It's like, well, no, they gave you money. They're a partner in what it is that you're doing, but they aren't thought of in the same capacity.

[00:45:09] They're almost put in a different category that I think what's what you're saying here is like they, it's, we're all partners in this, we're all collectively on the same team. So hiding things from them or, Thinking that they're not necessarily a partner and they're just an investor and classifying them as something that doesn't deserve the same level of respect as a partner would can be really detrimental.

[00:45:28] Afif: Any single investor of mine would tell me will tell you, because we have some small angel investors from where we first start. I don't care if you put in five grand when we first started. If you call me or you email and you want to catch up, I'll talk to you for two hours. because any amount of money is a big deal.

[00:45:43] And that person showed faith in you. So, I know a lot of CEOs who don't take that attitude. I personally never understand it because, I think part of it is, it's not just the partnership, but like Business is tough. It's not easy. So you want, when they go, when [00:46:00] everything's going great, it's easy to have fun conversations.

[00:46:02] But when things aren't going great, you want that. These people trust you because people can get annoyed and it's like, that's fine. But if you know that anytime things are going well or not, you can gimme a call, they're gonna feel like they trust you, no matter what happens. So that's always been my attitude.

[00:46:18] KC: Well, I think it goes back to what you said is business at the end of the day is objective truth. This is how the company is performing, whether you feel it's going well or you feel it's not going well. Right. The truth is in the numbers and in the data, and I think what you're talking about there is the ego, right?

[00:46:32] The who is right versus what is right. And I think a lot of people that wanna push back or don't want that, they're more concerned with the who is right then the what is right, a hundred percent. last one. I'm just going to glean from all the knowledge that you have here and I'm so grateful for the time you've taken with me is one is obviously, a lot of the people that read what I do or watch videos like this or, maybe may consider themselves underdog entrepreneurs or somebody that say, Hey, like, man, I never thought I'd have that CEO title one day or lead a successful company one day and here I am.

[00:46:57] What advice would you have for somebody that you know is in [00:47:00] that, similar scale up face to you or is trying to grow a business and is in this role that perhaps they didn't know that they should have?

[00:47:05] Afif: I think the reality is from the Fortune 100 to startup is any business when you go in, you realize it's a clown car and people are just trying to figure it out, right?

[00:47:18] Like no one's actually that much smarter than you. But I think it's the way you react. And if you're a problem solver, you're someone who says, this isn't a problem, it's a hurdle. We gotta figure out how to get over it. You're gonna do fine. Right. And so it's rarely I come across someone that I'm like, wow, this person blew me away with their intellect or their sophistication.

[00:47:37] No, a lot of times people are successful 'cause they're amazing networkers. They're very good with politics. Maybe they are very good at what they do. but there's always something that someone could always be better at. Right. So just. Know that no one's got everything figured out and you, you'll be fine.

[00:47:55] KC: Yeah. Starting businesses was awesome, had a way of reducing us all too, right? To [00:48:00] the same playing field where it just kind of reduces you down to your effort, and your work ethic and seeing what you can actually go out and go do. 'cause I think to your point, in the early, early on you said, Hey, yeah, I have these advantages, but I also have disadvantages.

[00:48:10] And that's true for everyone across the board. Yeah.

[00:48:11] Afif: And anyone who acts like they don't it. I don't wanna deal with you.

[00:48:18] KC: I'm with you on that. Well, look, AIF I am so grateful for you taking the time getting to chat and I'm sure I'll follow up with you on some project management stuff and have, we'll have more conversations in the future.

[00:48:26] But I appreciate you taking the time.

[00:48:28]Afif: Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me, Casey.